Cheryl Dunye and Tom Kalin
Queer cinema lions Cheryl Dunye and Tom Kalin’s latest project see them each direct an episode of Pride, FX’s new documentary series. The show, which premieres May 14, traces the history of LGBTQ Americans from the postwar period to today.
For Kalin and Dunye, work on Pride represents a long-standing association with history and queer cinema. Kalin helped usher in the era of new queer cinema in the 1990s with his founding film Swoon. The film dramatized the story of famous gay murderers Leopold & Loeb, exploring the power dynamics and shame that brought them together in Bonnie & Clyde fashion. Dunye caused a stir with her feature debut The Watermelon Woman, a fictional story about a young black lesbian movie buff researching the life and loves of an African-American lesbian actress who rose to popularity in the 1930s. two directors have continued to work ever since, with Kalin returning to feature films with the drama Savage Grace in 2007 and Dunye heading into episodic territory, with directing credits on Lovecraft Country, Dear White People and The Chi.
We spent time with the two directors discussing the show, their careers, and their personal sensibilities as directors. Pride hits FX on May 14.
What sets me apart the most about watching the show is how personal it feels – each director was really making their own mini-movie. Did you choose your own “era”?
TK: I was really lucky. I had a long relationship with Christine Vachon, so when I first launched for the series, I launched the 50s. I had a moment of reflection because I had been part of ACT UP and all that, maybe they want me to do the 80’s. I said to Christine “I don’t want to do the 80’s”. And she said, “Well, we don’t want you to do the 80s.
[Laughter]
TK: So the 1950s – I’m still very interested in the pre-Stonewall era in my feature film work. I had dealt with the period, but I had never treated the 50s this way before. It was the opportunity to show the 50s – that yes, Roy Cohn and McCarthy dominated and destroyed the decade in some ways. But in some ways it was an unknown story that [queer] people had rich and full lives at that time. It also allowed me to do scripted material. For example, Bobby Hunt was still alive, but he was 90 years old. So I ended up talking to his daughter. And it also became an opportunity to explore characters like Madeline Tress and collaborate with Alia Shawkat in a way that I couldn’t have done in other decades since the subjects are really alive and available.
Justin Vivian Bond and Kate Bornstein
How about you, Cheryl?
CD: Yeah, so Christine Vachon – longtime friend and producer – I’ve always wanted to work with her. So when that became a possibility, she contacted me. She said, “You have to choose your own decade. Tom Kalin is already doing the 50s. ”And I was like, rats.
[Laughter]
And she said Yance [Ford] was in the 90s, but everything else is open. So from Classes I was going to do the 70s. It’s a decade that speaks to me, and personal records had not been sufficiently documented. It’s an archive people keep because it’s so personal and political. So I had all of my stars that I loved – mentors who shaped my career – they appeared in that decade. So it was a very good decision. I can’t wait for people to see it. My episode airs a day after I turned 55.
It’s awesome. Love, Cheryl, that you pay tribute to both activists and performers in your episode. Audrie Lord, Cheryl Clarke, Barbara Hammer –
CD: Barbara is someone I met early in my career. She was talking at a film festival in the 90s and she saw my work. She said, “I love your experimentation. What do you need from me And we bonded immediately. I have always been an Audrie Lord-ian. I knew that was where everything I believed in as an artist, activist, filmmaker, director came from. All is in Audrie & Barbara. This is the work I do today, tomorrow and in the future. So picking them out to be the scene I go through in the 70s was very easy. And then realizing that they were both at the March on Washington – they might have known each other, they might not have known each other. Barbara shot footage, Audrie spoke on multiple stages – and that meant everything in the world to me.
This should be your next movie – the two meet in March. Tom, what spoke to you about the 1950s?
TK: A key figure in understanding the period is George Chauncy, who did a ton of queer identity work before WWII. We like to think about the idea of homosexual, heterosexual categories. But, as the Kinsey Report showed, the vast majority of men who have had sex with other men do not identify as gay.
Cheryl Clarke.
Yes.
TK: So on the one hand, it’s supposed to be the dark ages, and everyone was supposed to be miserable. But for me, the revelation in my episode is to find the Harold O’Neal archives. I show a bit of it, and you see decades of that rich, full life – 50s gays having fun, yeah, while McCarthy chased them. So I found it exciting to see the joy.
These are amazing archival footage to see queer culture flourish and take hold during this time. Tom, you go for a format that uses an actor – Alia Shawkat – like Madeline Tress as a sort of guide through the episode and the era. Why this choice?
TK: I just think she fits a person and a character perfectly. She looks so much like the real Madeline Tress. She’s a contemporary figure, more associated with comedy, but for me, the minute I thought of her, zinc plated. She must have felt the same. I did not know her; I just approached her to offer her the part. And we only shot for one day.
It’s impressive.
TK: Regarding the fourth wall, I think his memoir, being in the first person, was a direct address. And I’m not inventing anything to sleep with [a girlfriend] in high school, or going to lesbian bars and dressing like a man at 13. And she had a queer brother. I had never heard of queer siblings in the 50s. I had never heard of a 13 year old teenager in the 50s coming out, picking up people and saying, “I liked that.” . And although my exit was very difficult in the 1970s – in the days of Anita Bryant – I think it’s really surprising. And his brother, Arthur Tress, is a subject.
Yes.
TK: So it seemed simple. And Alia – there’s something so intimate about her that speaks directly to you. She invites you to come in very quickly.
She’s an underrated artist for sure. Always interesting. And I love Arthur Tress’s story about picking up men on 42nd Street in New York City wearing short shorts. I guess that’s always been a thing. Who would have thought?
[Laughter]
Cheryl, you act as your own onscreen guide, which is both your filmography and, I bet, your own personal research. Why?
CD: You know, I think it’s in my signing job, The watermelon woman. I think the Dunyementory is something that people really identify with in my work in cinema. The watermelon woman really took that, and all of my shorts too. I’m doing episodic right now, which is a whole different method of storytelling. But I like to play with form. I love to romanticize narrative stories in my head about myself. So it all turned out that way. It was perfect, like wine and cheese.
Arthur tress
One of the most surprising elements of your episode, Tom, is how you convey the message that gay culture flourished before Stonewall, and how the 1950s was a turning point where it went from the blink of an eye, to nudge to nudge to criminal. Was it because of the red fear? Senator Hunt’s story is crazy.
TK: There is a very famous book called Advise and consent, and Otto Preminger’s movie with a gay scene. It’s an iconic scene. I did not know that Advise and consent was a fiction in the story of Lester Hunt. Part of the reason was that his widow didn’t want this story told.
Sure.
TK: To me, it’s unbelievable that Tammy Baldwin tried to bring this case to justice under the Obama administration. I didn’t know. You ask 29 out of 30 people, no one will know that a US Senator shot himself in his Senate office in 1954. This is nonsense.
It is.
TK: And in the Senate, a voice separated the parties. Does this sound familiar to you?
Exactly.
TK: And you had these three senators – we all know McCarthy. And somehow Welker and Bridges escaped to become the Mitch McConnell and Jesse Helms they should have. Welker drank himself to death. Bridges died leaving a ton of money for his widow. And obviously that had a huge effect on the Hunt family. I found this case so shocking. I could have done the whole episode on it.
Hey, here’s your next movie.
TK: Totally. So the Red Scare, to borrow a phrase – when they couldn’t find communists, they chose to stick with gays instead. The Republican Party – then like today – was very good at finding targets.
On the same point, Cheryl, you do a great job of linking the Queer liberation movement with the civil rights movement, the women’s movement, the anti-war movement of the 1970s. And you also point out that Black Lives Matter has somehow re-adopted this strategy. Jumping on that, “Respectability Politics” popped up more than once in your episode – the idea that in order to progress, a movement has to let go of certain elements in order to progress. This is especially true for Betty Friedan and the women’s movement.
CD: Mmhmm.
Alexia De Veaux
It all makes you wonder: what’s the best way to strike a balance between “respectability” and bangs?
CD: Well, I think the ’70s really was the force of the margins. Marginalized people were able to mobilize, form coalitions and find their way. And in doing so, we create a culture together. Look at Audrie: realizing that she was black, lesbian, mother, etc., and that there were others who wanted to do that besides being a poet too …
