When Edward Russell first launched Inside the Groove during lockdown in 2020, he didn’t expect it to become one of the most popular Madonna podcasts on the planet in a matter of months. Now, 50 episodes and over 400,000 downloads later, it can barely keep up with the demand, releasing a new episode almost every week, recording bonus episodes and launching its very first product line this week.
Each episode focuses on a different track or era of Madonna, offering a deep dive into the creative process and its cultural impact. With references to music videos, media appearances, and live performances, the episodes often include snippets of the song’s multitrack session, as well as interviews with co-producers, songwriters, backing vocalists, critics and fans.
Queerty had the chance to interview Russell the night before Madonna’s birthday (she’ll be 63 tomorrow!) And talk about the podcast. (We also had the chance to chat with him about the latest episode of Inside the Groove, available now!) Here’s what he had to say…
QUEERTY: I want to start with a tough and hard-hitting question… If you could only listen to one Madonna album for the rest of your life, what would it be and why? (The best successful albums don’t count!)
RUSSELL: A tough one, but I’m going with Like a Prayer. Such a beautiful collection of songs from an artistic peak. I guess it also reminds me of being 19 – young, stupid and beautiful – things that I’m no longer!
You launched Inside the Groove last year and it quickly became one of the leading podcasts dedicated to dissecting Madonna’s music. You’ve recorded about 50 episodes now, recorded over 400,000 downloads, featured in The New York Times, and you’ve just launched your first swag line. When / where did you first get the idea for the podcast and have you ever expected it to become such a big hit so quickly?
Containment had just started and “Vogue” had turned 30. I read a lot of articles about it, but they all missed part of the story. It’s one thing to write about music, but it’s another to talk about it and play examples – podcasts are great for doing just that. I was surprised how quickly it took off, but I feel like you never put enough emphasis on her creativity as a writer and producer. I have received so many messages from people who have told me that it has helped me reconnect with Madonna’s music and it has been a real comfort from them during these difficult 18 months.
You’ve spoken to a lot of people who have worked with Madonna in the past, including her longtime backing vocalist Donna De Lory and her co-writers Tony Shimkin and Peter Rafelson, among others. Did you hear from Madonna or anyone on her camp today?
I am told that she is aware of the podcast but I do not know if she listened. I can’t imagine she would be particularly interested. Who knows? Maybe she will show up at my door one day with a list of notes and corrections?
What would you do if this happened?
Well, she only comes in if she takes off her shoes! Seriously, I would like to have the opportunity to ask him questions about the lesser known songs. But I would love to talk to her about her role as a producer. All his collaborators praise his work in this field, but not a single journalist asks him to do so. I think that adds to the myth that she’s only a producer in name, which seems a bit misogynistic to me.
One of the things I love the most about the podcast is that you don’t just roll out for 30 minutes every episode. Instead, you offer insightful commentary on his music and vocal performances that at times seem almost academic. And you’re not afraid to be critical, either. I know that got you in trouble with his stans before. I have had problems with them before. How do you deal with this?
He’s an underrated creative genius, but to be a fan you also have to see light and shade. Some people don’t have that depth or that perspective. Or maybe they are just jealous of other people’s success and think it takes away from them what they have to say? I think some of them don’t understand my sense of humor. Most of these stans are good people, but there is a small contingent that is not Madonna fan at all. She’s just the vessel that allows them to be trolls. They must lead such a boring life.
I like to start discussions but there are some who jump at everything I tweet to tell me I’m wrong. That’s good, but: – pic.twitter.com/OYxFYEnopr
– Inside The Groove (@insidethegroove) July 26, 2021
OK, now for a few short answer questions… What are your favorite Madonna sayings?
Obviously, but I really like “it’s only when I’m dancing that I can feel free”. When you watch Madonna dance she looks so liberated and happy.
And since you’re not afraid to be critical, what are the worst lyrics she’s ever written?
Any of the many songs where she rhymes “girl” with “world”. It’s a cliché that you can only get away with once, or even twice …
What about “waiting”, “hesitating” and “anticipating”? I think she uses those three words even more.
Be careful, you will summon these trolls! She self-references a bit too, and that’s pretty cool. It’s like a little Easter egg for die-hard fans to spot these things.
What is Madonna’s most underrated album?
It’s never been a favorite, but I’m starting to enjoy Hard Candy a little more. The production was always a bit offbeat, but with the time distance it is possible to focus on the quality of some of these melodies.
And since you’re not afraid to be critical, what’s Madonna’s most overdone album?
A difficult song, because I like Erotica a lot, and it has some of her best songs, but in terms of musicianship, it’s a bit behind Like a Prayer. Shep Pettibone was fantastic on the production, but he didn’t help push Madonna’s creativity the way Patrick Leonard or other producers like William Orbit and Mirwais did.
This is a really interesting point and one that I had not thought about before, but you are right! It’s almost like she’s so focused on pushing thematic boundaries that the actual music took a step back.
She was certainly creative in a visual way at that time. But the songs are slightly underdeveloped. Chord changes go where they should and never where they could. Take “In This Life”, a beautiful and tender ballad. But if Pat Leonard had collaborated on that one, I think it might have been up there with “Live To Tell” or “Oh Father”.
Much has been said about Madonna’s later career and how the music she produces today just doesn’t live up to her earlier material. What is your opinion on this? Do you think her best days are behind her? Or does she still have at least one other great album in her?
I think the job she does today is as good as that of her peers. But, of course, some of his previous songs were easily eleven out of ten. So she is not compared to others, she is compared to herself and that is an unrealistic benchmark. If she gives us another “Vogue”, I’d be happy. But I will be surprised. Who else has two songs as good as “Vogue” in their repertoire?
Last question: What piece of Madonna’s anecdote can you share with us from all the time you’ve spent dissecting her music?
I remember listening to her lonely voice on “Express Yourself” and at one point I could hear the spill coming from her headphones. I could make out a much more electronic demo of the song and its collaborator Stephen Bray singing a rough tune. It was like traveling through time and being able to enter the present moment.
OK, I know I said this was gonna be the last question, but… I have this geeky fantasy of Madonna one day releasing her demos and alternate mixes of songs and unreleased tracks. I doubt that will ever happen, but can you imagine? Going back to your previous point — that she used to be an 11 out of 10 — I bet she’s got some good stuff in the coffers.
From the late 90s, many demos and unreleased songs were leaked. But there are a lot of things from his early years that we never heard. She recorded six tracks with Shep as a follow-up to Erotica which are complete mysteries. There’s even a song called “Desperately Seeking Susan” – written for the movie – that never came out of the vaults. Maybe one day?
We can only hope! So what’s next for the podcast?
I just launched a line of products. I teamed up with an incredibly talented designer to create t-shirts inspired by Madonna’s own visuals. But the emphasis is still on the music and I want to make episodes that work through each album, song by song. There are still many stories to be told.
The conversation continues. Hear Edward and Graham discuss the soundtrack to Madonna’s 1987 album, “Who’s That Girl,” in a special anniversary edition of Inside the Groove.
